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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
From the kit description. Confirms what we all know now to be true:

From the factory, the VR30DDTT has no method of compensating for compressor surge, which means excess boost pressure is forced against the compressor wheel, this can accelerate wear on the turbocharger. For stock boost levels, Nissan has apparently deemed this to be acceptable for the life of the car, but once you crank up the boost, it's only going to get worse. While we would like to point out that some factors in the VR30's design mean that not ALL of the excess boost pressure will be bled off, we do strongly believe that adding BOVs will help extend the life of the turbos, on both stock and modified cars.

https://conceptzperformance.com/czp-hks-ssqv4-blow-off-valve-kit-infiniti-q50-q60-3.0t-vr30ddtt-czp-14463-5c-kt_p_40782.php

CZP released their own version of the HKS SSQV BOV kit. Current price $595, but I think they will price match?

Noted that Z1's kit for our cars are $648.

https://www.z1motorsports.com/z1-products/z1-motorsports/z1-q50-q60-vr30ddtt-hks-blow-off-valve-kit-p-12726.html

I haven't compared kits in detail or called either company to inquire, but I wonder what the differences, if any, might be?

I know I also want to divert/recirc in my application.



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From the kit description. Confirms what we all know now to be true:

From the factory, the VR30DDTT has no method of compensating for compressor surge, which means excess boost pressure is forced against the compressor wheel, this can accelerate wear on the turbocharger. For stock boost levels, Nissan has apparently deemed this to be acceptable for the life of the car, but once you crank up the boost, it's only going to get worse. While we would like to point out that some factors in the VR30's design mean that not ALL of the excess boost pressure will be bled off, we do strongly believe that adding BOVs will help extend the life of the turbos, on both stock and modified cars.

https://conceptzperformance.com/czp-hks-ssqv4-blow-off-valve-kit-infiniti-q50-q60-3.0t-vr30ddtt-czp-14463-5c-kt_p_40782.php

CZP released their own version of the HKS SSQV BOV kit. Current price $595, but I think they will price match?

Noted that Z1's kit for our cars are $648.

https://www.z1motorsports.com/z1-products/z1-motorsports/z1-q50-q60-vr30ddtt-hks-blow-off-valve-kit-p-12726.html

I haven't compared kits in detail or called either company to inquire, but I wonder what the differences, if any, might be?

I know I also want to divert/recirc in my application.



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The two kits are virtually identical, go with whichever one is cheaper.
 

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Discussion Starter #4

Had never seen this, thanks. Which BOVs would you recommend? They seem to be the most expensive part... And we need two of 'em of course.

My mechanic initially recommended the Synapse air diverter to me as he swore by them as far as activation speed and reliability, and these are what he's using on his 21 PSI boosted daily driver (a turbo Mitsu EVO)



They're around $200 each x 2.

The (authentic) HKS SSQVs BOVs by themselves seem to be pricing out a little over $200 each ($218 on Amazon), so that's $436 + $118 for the adapter / tubing kit is a little bit more cost effective ($554)



I definitely wouldn't trust the "HKS" BOV on Amazon / eBay as being authentic for less than half the price ($84 each).



Finally the only other BOV that I considered, other than the HKS or Synapse, was the beautiful GReddy. I trust GReddy parts as well, as I have used their components extensively with some of my cars in the past (Nissan 240SX, Honda's, etc.)



They're pushing $250 each, so we're past the $600 mark with these?

I'm going to do some research and see if I could find a reliable BOV manufacturer that I could trust, that makes something in the $100-$150 range each for the BOVs.

Thanks for the link.




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I've been doing boosted stuff for a long time, at higher HP levels than the VR30DDTT, and there's a bit of a golden rule on BOV's vs. wastegates. Put all your money in wastegates, because if they fail you risk overboosting and blowing the motor. Cheaping out on a BOV which simply vents air will not cost you a motor if it fails, especially on a platform that wasn't designed with a BOV or diverter valve from the factory. I wouldn't hesitate to put $40 BOV's on this motor, which would put you at a total of ~$200 for a kit.

I was going to do the BOV's until I read up a bit about how the VR30DDTT avoids the use of BOV's. Even at higher boost I don't think it'll hurt the turbo's because A) the wastegates stay open after you let off the throttle. This avoids the "push from both directions" i.e. exhaust pushing and the boost in the intake pushing against the shaft of the turbo. And B) the ECU keeps the throttle open slightly to vent some of this pressure after you let off the throttle.
 

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I've been doing boosted stuff for a long time, at higher HP levels than the VR30DDTT, and there's a bit of a golden rule on BOV's vs. wastegates. Put all your money in wastegates, because if they fail you risk overboosting and blowing the motor. Cheaping out on a BOV which simply vents air will not cost you a motor if it fails, especially on a platform that wasn't designed with a BOV or diverter valve from the factory. I wouldn't hesitate to put $40 BOV's on this motor, which would put you at a total of ~$200 for a kit.

I was going to do the BOV's until I read up a bit about how the VR30DDTT avoids the use of BOV's. Even at higher boost I don't think it'll hurt the turbo's because A) the wastegates stay open after you let off the throttle. This avoids the "push from both directions" i.e. exhaust pushing and the boost in the intake pushing against the shaft of the turbo. And B) the ECU keeps the throttle open slightly to vent some of this pressure after you let off the throttle.
AMS doesn’t think these BOVs are a great idea. I inquired on the install and their response had me send mine back to Z1 and not install them. I have more than a few AMS parts as well a tune by them so I trust their advice.
 

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Don't get me wrong, it won't hurt anything. I just came to the conclusion it's overkill accept in maybe extreme instances due to how Infiniti designed the system.
 

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i had a GoFastBits BOV on another car that i liked ... you could set it atmospheric, recirc, or 50/50. i think they are an Australian company.
 

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The Chinese had have made exact copies of the HKS SSQV down to the box, manual, everything!


IF anyone considers these, I would make sure you get them from a reputable source.


Also, Buying cheap car parts is also not recommended. Cheap copies and no R&D as cheap stuff is pushed out of a chinese sweatshop. Is this what you really want to put on your $XX,XXX investment?

If anyone said yes, How about this equation..


Would you rather spend $300-400 for a real BOV or spend thousands replacing a turbo?

As in post #5 said, He wouldnt hesistate putting $40.00 BOV's on the car..

IDK what kind of experience he has with boosted stuff, but one thing is clear "When you try to save a buck, It'll cost you 2" and your experience in building cars and boosting, I would never advise someone with cheap chinese aftermarket parts.
 

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Wastegates do nothing on the intake side but regulate boost pressure. I dont know why people keep talking about wastegates when that is exhaust only and what is driving the intake side. Its sole function is to regulate when to stop the boost from climbing and set at a specific boost pressure. Thats it!

Now, If your statement is correct and the throttle plate stays open, then everyone who installed a BOV kit wouldnt hear it and wouldnt work. The boost going backwards would not be going backwards and go past the throttle plate. But ask anyone who has the HKS, they vent. This is the pressurized air that is causing the compressor surge

So, I stand by my statement as compressor surge are killing these turbos and a real BOV kit is needed.

Z1 motorsorts told me they should be used, but they need to have a tune for the slight moment in richness. Not to just install them and not tune.
 

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Now, If your statement is correct and the throttle plate stays open, then everyone who installed a BOV kit wouldnt hear it and wouldnt work.
I can tell you with 100% certainty, the throttle stays open to purge excess boost; the duration and amount that it remains open depends on the boost.

Yesterday I drove to the store, in the middle of me turning left, a car ran a red light -- my only option was to open it up and speed through the turn (note that I am currently running the "stage 3" Red Alpha tune). Immediately after I got through the intersection, a car pulled out of a parking lot and came to a complete stop in the middle of the road. I slammed on the brakes, but the throttle was still completely open. The brakes locked for a second and the tires slid as the car continued pulling with full force. Thankfully, I was able to come to a stop just before rear-ending the person or slamming into the curb.

In theory, a BOV would assist with purging that excess boost and the ECU could close the throttle sooner and cease running at 100% as I slammed on the brakes.

That being said, I am sticking with AMS' recommendations on this platform, but that experience is definitely something everyone should consider. (I was hesitant to let the wife drive my car when I could map switch it, but I currently am unable to change to a lower power map and I absolutely refuse to place her into that situation that I was in.)
 

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Yea, I get the story.. but you totally missed the point.

The HKS BOV is actuated by vacuum.

if what you say is true, the manifold will still be in boost and not VAC.

As we know from the HKS crowd, the BOVs work when throttle is closed. So there's a vacuum that triggers the bovs.
So that means boost is not being bled off from the throttle plate as everyone keeps saying.
 

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Do you have a vac/boost gauge in your car? Maybe a scope looking at the throttle plate? How can u say 100% certainty?
Looking at my data logs, the throttle position was in an almost entirely opinion value while the accelerator pedal position sensor was at the minimum value (following the sharp acceleration); the throttle closes significantly more slowly than the accelerator pedal position that came to a complete drop, and boost decreased in stages as the throttle closed behind it graphically.
 

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Yea, I get the story.. but you totally missed the point.

The HKS BOV is actuated by vacuum.

if what you say is true, the manifold will still be in boost and not VAC.

As we know from the HKS crowd, the BOVs work when throttle is closed. So there's a vacuum that triggers the bovs.
So that means boost is not being bled off from the throttle plate as everyone keeps saying.
Good point; I forgot the BOV are vacuum dependent for the piston. So does the BOV release excess boost after the throttle has closed and some boost remains in the intake? (Excess that the tune would consider "safe", for example) I do not know. I only know what I have experienced and what I have data logs of -- I can assure you that the ECM does not close the throttle when there is an amount of boost.

There are no blow off valves (BOV’s) as standard on the VR30DDTT motors and as a result they are prone to prethrottle over boost during gearshifts and also when entering overrun. We have added some functionality to aid in reducing the over boost amount, fortunately the MAP is relatively well controlled using the throttle as well reducing risk to engine internals.
So a combination of more boost from the tune and the EcuTek software combined with basic features designed to keep the throttle open that is more noticeable when tuned compared to the stock tune?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I can tell you with 100% certainty, the throttle stays open to purge excess boost; the duration and amount that it remains open depends on the boost.

Yesterday I drove to the store, in the middle of me turning left, a car ran a red light -- my only option was to open it up and speed through the turn (note that I am currently running the "stage 3" Red Alpha tune). Immediately after I got through the intersection, a car pulled out of a parking lot and came to a complete stop in the middle of the road. I slammed on the brakes, but the throttle was still completely open. The brakes locked for a second and the tires slid as the car continued pulling with full force. Thankfully, I was able to come to a stop just before rear-ending the person or slamming into the curb.

In theory, a BOV would assist with purging that excess boost and the ECU could close the throttle sooner and cease running at 100% as I slammed on the brakes.

That being said, I am sticking with AMS' recommendations on this platform, but that experience is definitely something everyone should consider. (I was hesitant to let the wife drive my car when I could map switch it, but I currently am unable to change to a lower power map and I absolutely refuse to place her into that situation that I was in.)
I've had the exact same scenario occur, of course not as pronounced...as I have a '17 non-Red Sport.

My wife refuses to even drive my car now. She said she was accelerating to get past a car on the freeway on-ramp and a car in another lane jumped out in front of her. Said my car "lurched" forward and continued to accelerate like the "pedal got stuck". This was right after I bought the car new. Mistakenly - I accused her of accidentally hitting the THROTTLE instead of the brakes (or at least partially hitting the throttle in a panic).

Now I'm not so sure?

We thought it was deja vu back to the deadly Toyota RAV4 issue where the driver's side floor mat was getting stuck on the bottom of the (too) long @$$ accelerator pedal (how's that for "expert" car design and Engineering?!)., Which actually happened to both of us driving her car, before the recall - and they fixed it.

Even at stock boost levels - in a non Red Sport, I feel the "lurching/continued acceleration" from time to time. Subconsciously I find myself when I'm driving my Infiniti AVOIDING letting my foot off the gas "too quickly" - to avoid the jerking, etc. I'm modifying my driving technique - to deal with this car's behavior.

And I don't like it. I shouldn't have to do this.

We can go back and forth on this board about vacuum vs boost, etc. Waste-gates vs. BOVs, but I know what I feel. And I believe my wife (now) when she says that she didn't inadvertently hit the gas pedal. She doesn't have to worry about this in her RAV4 (any more). I shouldn't have to drive my car in a "special way" to mitigate this.

I can only imagine how bad it's going to be when I add my JB4/CBE/methanol injection plus (gasp!) my existing STILLEN air intake???
 

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I've had the exact same scenario occur, of course not as pronounced...as I have a '17 non-Red Sport.

My wife refuses to even drive my car now. She said she was accelerating to get past a car on the freeway on-ramp and a car in another lane jumped out in front of her. Said my car "lurched" forward and continued to accelerate like the "pedal got stuck". This was right after I bought the car new. Mistakenly - I accused her of accidentally hitting the THROTTLE instead of the brakes (or at least partially hitting the throttle in a panic).

Now I'm not so sure?

We thought it was deja vu back to the deadly Toyota RAV4 issue where the driver's side floor mat was getting stuck on the bottom of the (too) long @$$ accelerator pedal (how's that for "expert" car design and Engineering?!)., Which actually happened to both of us driving her car, before the recall - and they fixed it.

Even at stock boost levels - in a non Red Sport, I feel the "lurching/continued acceleration" from time to time. Subconsciously I find myself when I'm driving my Infiniti AVOIDING letting my foot off the gas "too quickly" - to avoid the jerking, etc. I'm modifying my driving technique - to deal with this car's behavior.

And I don't like it. I shouldn't have to do this.

We can go back and forth on this board about vacuum vs boost, etc. Waste-gates vs. BOVs, but I know what I feel. And I believe my wife (now) when she says that she didn't inadvertently hit the gas pedal. She doesn't have to worry about this in her RAV4 (any more). I shouldn't have to drive my car in a "special way" to mitigate this.

I can only imagine how bad it's going to be when I add my JB4/CBE/methanol injection plus (gasp!) my existing STILLEN air intake???


^^

Going to reply to your post in the Meth Injection thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
On my way home from my best friend's house this evening I "experimented" with my stock Q as far as releasing my foot abruptly at (near) wide open throttle.

Quite unnerving to say the least. Down on Lincoln Blvd (Hwy 1), near the L.A. Airport there's a stretch of winding curves that are nearly desolate after midnight.

I did several experiments. For most of them, the common theme kept reoccurring. There is a pronounced and appreciable delay of 2-3 seconds, between the time you release your foot from the accelerator and when the throttle actually "winds down". One particular (scary) time, the RPMs actually shot UP without me doing anything other than popping my foot OFF the throttle ("pedaling it"). I was going between 80-85 mph, revved VERY abruptly from approximately 3,500 rpm to about 6K+ and then just as abruptly took my foot off.

"Why did I do that?!"
(Rhetorical question)

The RPMs SHOT UP to past 6,600 and the engine/ car/transmission?? made noises I have never heard before

It was like the car got PISSED at me for daring to do this?

I can imagine what could happen if I was got high speed around a sweeping turn and something like this happened. And turn number two ("dead man's turn") out at Willow Springs, would be out of the question... At least for this car.

When I would take my 455 HP Lexus RCF there, when I let off the gas, the throttle would close and the car would (quite predictably) coast around the turn. If, at my discretion I wanted to either brake or administer a bit of very precisely metered "throttle steer", again... This would be a very predictable set of events.

I don't know what this car would do?

I realize I'm comparing a V6 twin turbo car to a normally aspirated V8, but no matter what the one thing I do think is not too much to ask for is predictability?!

99% of the time this would not be a concern, but what is concerning is the 1% chance that I might get into trouble on these dangerous So Cal streets and highways. The anecdotal "evil boosting Q60 trying to kill me"



as satired in the HKS SSQV BOV video seems a little bit more plausible since I dismissed it as just a funny video

https://youtu.be/HHkG4ckMOmI

designed to scare people



into buying a product?

Perhaps that still is the case, but nevertheless, I've already purchased them, and still am planning on installing them, as well as the JB4.





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You won't regret them. The surge is actually still there AFTER the BOVs but at about 10%, barely detectable. The surge post tune w/o the BOVs was very annoying. I suspect if it were someone's DD they'd just get used to it, mine hasn't been as of yet so it stood out to me every time it happened. I don't even care about improved turbo life etc. just addressing the surge was enough. The added character it gives the car is a nice bonus.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
You won't regret them. The surge is actually still there AFTER the BOVs but at about 10%, barely detectable. The surge post tune w/o the BOVs was very annoying. I suspect if it were someone's DD they'd just get used to it, mine hasn't been as of yet so it stood out to me every time it happened. I don't even care about improved turbo life etc. just addressing the surge was enough. The added character it gives the car is a nice bonus.

That’s good to know. Yeah the driveability and the predictability is what I'm looking for. We've come full circle here now as I was one of the new owners of a Q four months ago, and had no knowledge of this particular platform. Being on this forum however I was glad to be able to refresh my knowledge on the VR30DDTT.

I went out and immediately purchased a (CARB legal) Stillen intake not knowing the repurcutions of that move, because I hadn't really read any reviews or gone to any forums, but had used Stillen products in the past successfully.

I am definitely going to delay my HKS BOV kit installation for a couple of weeks after the JB4 so I can establish my own baseline of operation to compare post BOV installation.

If I can attenuate this surging even 80% I'd be satisfied.

Thanks.


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