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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
One of our members posted this on a Facebook Q60 site. It's a little unnerving from a tuner's perspective. What are your thoughts on this? Maybe Sid can throw in his $0.02 as well? I don't know much about cars and have never tuned one, but was considering it after purchasing a catback and dp system later. This makes me hesitant about voiding any warranties.

"Hi everyone, I wanted to spill out some info into the group. I'm sure most of you might be aware of this and those that are not will now know. I spoke to someone over at Infiniti tech line regarding a vehicle that had nothing to do with a tune but the next bit of information he gave me was almost like a warning. So the way the ECU is designed on the VR30 motors, including the QX30, is called a "married" type connection. What does this mean? It means basically if you tune your vehicle and in the future decide to take it off and clear the ECU because something happened to the vehicle, you would think you're in the clear, correct? Nom you're not. The ECU not only stores info and data into itself but also uses other major components in the vehicle to store information, hence why he said the ECU is "married" to the car. Even if you decide to take the ECU out and put another one in, that car won't work because that ECU is registered to that car, and all components are registered to the ECU. I just wanted to share this information with everyone that says their "TUNE" can't be read. Anything can be read if they take the ECU and dump the information and go back into reading the codes. Recently that is what has been happening.

ALSO HE DID MENTION THAT THERE ARE 3 OPEN CASES ON THE "JB1" TUNES THAT THEY'RE LOOKING INTO. THEY'RE DUMPING THE ECU OUT AND READING ALL THE CODES FROM THE DAY IT WAS PURCHASED TO THE MOMENTS OF ADDITIONAL BOOST PEAKS."
 

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One of our members posted this on a Facebook Q60 site. It's a little unnerving from a tuner's perspective. What are your thoughts on this? Maybe Sid can throw in his $0.02 as well? I don't know much about cars and have never tuned one, but was considering it after purchasing a catback and dp system later. This makes me hesitant about voiding any warranties.

"Hi everyone, I wanted to spill out some info into the group. I'm sure most of you might be aware of this and those that are not will now know. I spoke to someone over at Infiniti tech line regarding a vehicle that had nothing to do with a tune but the next bit of information he gave me was almost like a warning. So the way the ECU is designed on the VR30 motors, including the QX30, is called a "married" type connection. What does this mean? It means basically if you tune your vehicle and in the future decide to take it off and clear the ECU because something happened to the vehicle, you would think you're in the clear, correct? Nom you're not. The ECU not only stores info and data into itself but also uses other major components in the vehicle to store information, hence why he said the ECU is "married" to the car. Even if you decide to take the ECU out and put another one in, that car won't work because that ECU is registered to that car, and all components are registered to the ECU. I just wanted to share this information with everyone that says their "TUNE" can't be read. Anything can be read if they take the ECU and dump the information and go back into reading the codes. Recently that is what has been happening.

ALSO HE DID MENTION THAT THERE ARE 3 OPEN CASES ON THE "JB1" TUNES THAT THEY'RE LOOKING INTO. THEY'RE DUMPING THE ECU OUT AND READING ALL THE CODES FROM THE DAY IT WAS PURCHASED TO THE MOMENTS OF ADDITIONAL BOOST PEAKS."
That is interesting...I can't say I know the answer for sure but I can say that there are some truths and some not so truthful (alternative facts???) sounding statements.;)


There is usually a counter in the ECU program that tells Infiniti/the dealer/Nissan how many times the ECU has been flashed. It's possible that some components can be tied i.e. "married" to the ECU but those components would have to be "smart" i.e. they would need to have their own control modules or memory chips (I don't know if there are any separate control modules in the Q60 but I'm not aware of any tbh).

As far as the data showing the presence of a tuner like the JB1, that's probably correct. The data (boost, injector timing, other variables, etc) are all recorded to the black box (I'm sure Infiniti has one tied to the ECU). So it wouldn't surprise me if Infiniti was able download all the data and then manually review all the different records to find the ones that are well outside the design/programmed parameters. This data dump goes back a certain period of time so a JB1 might not be easy to catch if the JB1 is removed and the car then driven for a set number of hours/miles.

At the end of the day, tuning is always a luck of the draw type of thing. YMMV as they say. Cultivate a good relationship with your dealership because they are your representative to the OEM and can make things so much easier if they are in your corner.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I wish I could say it was easy to maintain a good relationship with my dealer. I try to go there as little as possible since it's over 1.5 hours away from my house.
 
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I caught that post and it's very interesting. I'm going to have to see if I can get some more answers.

It makes sense that this is very much in the realm of possibility and it very disturbing to those who want to consider tuning their ride.

Personally, I wouldn't consider a tune on these turbo engines until the boost peak issue could be remedied. I've seen a tuned GT-R dyno sheet with a smooth horsepower and torque curve. Peaks are something I wouldn't risk.

From my understanding of tuning G37's, once the license was taken off the ECU and the stock software reflashed, there was no way to tell.

Just "thinking out loud," but, I wouldn't think it would save all running data since the first mile of the car. If it is recording, it would most likely be like a dashboard camera does when the memory gets full: rewrite over the oldest data on the memory card.

These are brand new to the customer and dealerships alike. Lots of unknown on both ends with specifics like this.
 

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Just "thinking out loud," but, I wouldn't think it would save all running data since the first mile of the car. If it is recording, it would most likely be like a dashboard camera does when the memory gets full: rewrite over the oldest data on the memory card.

These are brand new to the customer and dealerships alike. Lots of unknown on both ends with specifics like this.
Memory/storage is cheap and logs compress easily. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the ECU could hold all logging from the first day to the day the car died.
 

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Memory/storage is cheap and logs compress easily. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the ECU could hold all logging from the first day to the day the car died.
This is true.

This is going to bug me until I can get a definitive answer. It'll most likely have to come from a tech who has been to training for these things. I'll reach out to a buddy. This is something important for those who are considering tuning to know!

And, not attempting to tarnish any tuning company's reputation, you cannot exactly trust their word should they state this isn't true or possible. They are not the manufacturer with access to the proprietary software and copyrighted designs.
 

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Memory/storage is cheap and logs compress easily. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the ECU could hold all logging from the first day to the day the car died.
I think you would still need terabytes of storage in order to potentially record what could be at least 4-5yrs of data. The data logs by themselves wouldn't take up much room but you can only compress data files so much before you start taking chances with data reading and recovery. Plus, this is still a company that while probably more big-brotherish than others, is still very cheap when it comes to a lot of things.

Heck, these are the same folks that designed the Q60 wheel and then used a version of it in their halo car. They went with a flat-bottom wheel on their smaller suv vs in their sporty cars.These are also the same people who instead of releasing a new Z and GTR, have instead tripled their focus on CUVs, SUVs, etc. The bean counters rule and even the added cost of memory (past a certain dollar amount) would be a big no-no imo.
 

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One of our members posted this on a Facebook Q60 site. It's a little unnerving from a tuner's perspective. What are your thoughts on this? Maybe Sid can throw in his $0.02 as well? I don't know much about cars and have never tuned one, but was considering it after purchasing a catback and dp system later. This makes me hesitant about voiding any warranties.

"Hi everyone, I wanted to spill out some info into the group. I'm sure most of you might be aware of this and those that are not will now know. I spoke to someone over at Infiniti tech line regarding a vehicle that had nothing to do with a tune but the next bit of information he gave me was almost like a warning. So the way the ECU is designed on the VR30 motors, including the QX30, is called a "married" type connection. What does this mean? It means basically if you tune your vehicle and in the future decide to take it off and clear the ECU because something happened to the vehicle, you would think you're in the clear, correct? Nom you're not. The ECU not only stores info and data into itself but also uses other major components in the vehicle to store information, hence why he said the ECU is "married" to the car. Even if you decide to take the ECU out and put another one in, that car won't work because that ECU is registered to that car, and all components are registered to the ECU. I just wanted to share this information with everyone that says their "TUNE" can't be read. Anything can be read if they take the ECU and dump the information and go back into reading the codes. Recently that is what has been happening.

ALSO HE DID MENTION THAT THERE ARE 3 OPEN CASES ON THE "JB1" TUNES THAT THEY'RE LOOKING INTO. THEY'RE DUMPING THE ECU OUT AND READING ALL THE CODES FROM THE DAY IT WAS PURCHASED TO THE MOMENTS OF ADDITIONAL BOOST PEAKS."
I will preface this by saying that I am not a mechanic nor do I have any expert or inside knowledge. My opinion is that what you have read on FB sounds incorrect.

The custom tuners will all tell you that their custom tunes are untraceable, and the manufacturer will tell you that all aftermarket tunes are completely traceable and will void the warranty. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

I remember reading this somewhere on this forum, it was a comment made by a reputable tuner that he had inside knowledge from his connections to Nissan/Infiniti that there is no flash counter. Additionally, Ecutek uses is own programming sequence to modify the ECU, not the manufacturer sequence. So even if there is a flash counter, the Ecutek modification would not trigger the flash counter because it doesn't use the manufacturer program to unlock and reprogram the ECU.

Also, I seriously doubt that Infiniti has a perpetual datalog of all engine activity that records everything from the momemt the vehicle comes of the line. Such a logistical/engineering/manufacturing process just seems implausible. The statement that the physical ECU hardware module is linked to the vehicle is probably true. This fact is in no way logically related to the fact that you can program the ECU software to a custom program and then reprogram it back to the stock program.

Manufacturers love to under-perform their ECU programs for turbo and supercharged cars. The reason is because they don't want their lower end vehicles to complete with the more expensive lines. This is certainly true for BMW, Jaguar, Audi, and others. The end user can spend $500-$1500 on a tune, and get same performance/HP/Acceleration from his vehicle and save $10-40K. It is also a little about safety margins, but its mostly about the economics of making more money and not having your low end cars complete with the high end versions.

Are there risks involved? Absolutely. I try to mitigate my risk as much as I can. I.e., any time I take my vehicle to the dealer, I will program it back to stock. Also, I would chose to work with a tuner that has a good reputation and experienced with that particular vehicle and ask them for a cautious and conservative tune.

In my humble opinion, if I do a safe and conservative tune and respect the vehicle, chances are I shouldn't blow up my engine. If I don't blow up my engine, the manufacturer will never have the opportunity to challenge my warranty or give me a hard time.

Ultimately its a question of if you are a gambler or not and what your take is on your odds. In this case, I feel the odds are in my favor. I could get burned, but I'm willing to take the risk.
 

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One more comment that I would also like to add. For the most part, the dealer is your friend. This is certainly true when it comes to the service department for my dealership.

When you file a warranty claim, the funds to pay for the repairs don't come out of dealers pockets. They get paid from the manufacturer so they are actually making a profit on your warranty claims.

Unlike the manufacturer, the dealer has no incentive to deny a claim. In addition to the loss of money from the repair, they are creating bad blood, anger, resentment, bad publicity and negative word of mouth if they don't honor a valid and legitimate warranty claim.

The only reason they would try to do deny a warranty claim if it is a clear case of abuse, neglect, or damage caused by the consumer that would be obvious and easily caught by the manufacturer and thus not honored as a legit claim.

So, back to my original post. If you blow up your engine/drivetrain because of the custom tune, then you may be in trouble. If you have a drivetrain problem but it isn't caused by the custom tune, more than likely you will get away with the dealer honoring your warranty. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees in life. (back to my comment about gambling)
 

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Whew!!! Someone get zenboy444 some water ‘cause he’s on fire!!! :-D

Seriously, very good and valid points. And, very good assessment of the dealerships.

I’m do by my best to get an answer on this. I don’t like speculation on these sorts of issues.

Here is food for thought from my buddy who is an Infiniti tech I work with: if an airbag is ever deployed, that deployment is forever recorded on the airbag diag unit. Even if the unit is reset, that deployment is recorded.

The only way to erase that deployment is to replace the airbag diag unit itself.

So, there is a possibility of some abnormality in engine function to be recorded, but, if true, to what extent and when it’s recorded is the big question.

As far as I know, from personal experience, once I removed my license, customer time, and reflashed my G37, there was no trace to be found. Very different car, though.


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This is driving me nuts. I asked a master tech regarding this and he said he is only aware of the GT-R having the equivalent of a black box. He could not say for certain whether these new Q50’s and Q60’s have the same.

Even still, say it doesn’t have a black box, can the ECU récord a certain length of operational history?

I’m trying to get creative to try to find an answer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
This is driving me nuts. I asked a master tech regarding this and he said he is only aware of the GT-R having the equivalent of a black box. He could not say for certain whether these new Q50’s and Q60’s have the same.

Even still, say it doesn’t have a black box, can the ECU récord a certain length of operational history?

I’m trying to get creative to try to find an answer.


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We appreciate your sleuthing Sid!
 
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Not a definitive answer, but, something to contribute here.

Doing a Google search regarding the GT-R black box yielded this thread: Black Box records or not? - R35 GT-R - GT-R Life

Read Retsujou's comment: "The black box is able to store roughly 36 hours worth of log data. So if you put the http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/search/?Ntt=batterybattery on a booster and leave the http://rover.ebay.com/rover/13/0/19...Ftr=0&IsSmart=0&dlprc=20.95&SKU=4607-02304359ignition turned on for 2 days you pretty much clear the log"

Could that be true?

Reading further, there is the usual hearsay of both sides of the fence. Not sure where to draw the line between BS'ing and truth at the moment.

On another note, looking up in the Nissan catalog, the GT-R does have a module called a Status Recorder (screenshot attached). This is the only part I can find that would most likely be the black box.

Going to the Infiniti catalog, I am unable to find a comparable part by that name or description.

Now, this does NOT mean the ECU is not able to somehow record.

Oy, why is this so difficult to get verification on?!
 

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Okay, more info to add that is an interesting tidbit.

Spoke to my corporate parts rep and he told me a good little story he had direct knowledge of regarding a GT-R with 60 miles on it. Basically, special techs were flown in from Japan with equipment not available to Infiniti USA personnel. They were able to verify the vehicle was launch-controlled 21 times, which caused premature transmission failure.

I've spoke candidly with my rep in the past and he has no reason to mislead me. He said he'll see if he can find out for me an answer as he, just like my master tech and another tech I asked, is unaware of the ECU having the capability to recording operational history.

I am sort of reaching the end of my informational rope. Hopefully, I'll be able to pull through somehow and get an answer on this for you guys. Plus, I want to know should my hopes come to fruition to get an Q50 or Q60 RS soon!
 

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Okay, more info to add that is an interesting tidbit.

Spoke to my corporate parts rep and he told me a good little story he had direct knowledge of regarding a GT-R with 60 miles on it. Basically, special techs were flown in from Japan with equipment not available to Infiniti USA personnel. They were able to verify the vehicle was launch-controlled 21 times, which caused premature transmission failure.

I've spoke candidly with my rep in the past and he has no reason to mislead me. He said he'll see if he can find out for me an answer as he, just like my master tech and another tech I asked, is unaware of the ECU having the capability to recording operational history.

I am sort of reaching the end of my informational rope. Hopefully, I'll be able to pull through somehow and get an answer on this for you guys. Plus, I want to know should my hopes come to fruition to get an Q50 or Q60 RS soon!
I know the CONSULT III software Nissan uses (most dealers do not have this software because of the high cost) can be used to tell them a number of things wrt the GTR at least...for instance boost and other parameters, whether stability control was switched off and for how long, launch rpm and boost levels, and number of launches.


For instance, when I worked at NNA, one of the techs told me of a lease GTR (employee lease) that was serviced and had been launched 20+ times (not consecutively because Nissan disabled the system from allowing more than like 4 launches back to back depending on transmission temps, engine temps, etc). I remember mentioning it on the GTR forums when folks asked if Nissan could tell how many times the car had been launched and got picked on and insulted for it....go figure....try to help folks out and....:(. But I understand, it's life...everyone has an agenda (some more toxic than others).
 

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I know the CONSULT III software Nissan uses (most dealers do not have this software because of the high cost) can be used to tell them a number of things wrt the GTR at least...for instance boost and other parameters, whether stability control was switched off and for how long, launch rpm and boost levels, and number of launches.


For instance, when I worked at NNA, one of the techs told me of a lease GTR (employee lease) that was serviced and had been launched 20+ times (not consecutively because Nissan disabled the system from allowing more than like 4 launches back to back depending on transmission temps, engine temps, etc). I remember mentioning it on the GTR forums when folks asked if Nissan could tell how many times the car had been launched and got picked on and insulted for it....go figure....try to help folks out and....:(. But I understand, it's life...everyone has an agenda (some more toxic than others).
Very good to know! The existence of CONSULT III was not known to me. Most likely because it's never needed at an Infiniti dealership...yet.

What you stated there is the sole reason I held out for so long from joining a forum. No time for bickering, picking apart, and arguing online. I'm very much a person who likes answers, productive conversations, and moving forward. I value my time and try not to waste it!
 

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CONSULT III
Maybe I should venture out of my burrow more often. I found out my shop does have CONSULT III.

Here's more to chew on for the community that I witnessed first hand today.

Tech hooks CONSULT III to 2017 Q60. I've explained to him what is being asked, what we are looking for, etc. He's going through and he can't find anything. Nothing with operational history recorded anywhere.

What he did note is if there is a DTC, it will record the conditions at the moment of failure to help diagnose what caused the failure of a particular component or system. This does NOT mean it can detect a tune previously on the ECU and removed.

And, this does NOT mean Nissan does not have some sort of special diagnostic equipment in which to fly out a specialist for.

Same tech working on another 2017 Q60 with a thrown rod bearing did state tech line only asked him what he found and recommended replacing the engine. Through inference, if there was some sort of special black box or ability to record operational history similar to that of the GT-R, tech line would have had him go through those procedures.

At this moment, I'm comfortable with saying the new vehicles do not have this capability. At least not yet. But, this is also my personal opinion based off several factors and no "official" confirmation from Nissan/Infiniti corporate.

Testrage, two cents at your convenience, please.
 

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